Today on the podcast, Amanda Jensen, Co-Founder of Paperdoll Ensemble, drops in to talk about the 2023 FringeArts offering, The Pecking Order, a 70s-inspired tragicomedy highlighting the absurdity of women’s rights being thrust back in time. Here is my interview with Paperdoll Ensemble for The Pecking Order.

September 21 – October 1, 2023

PAPER DOLL ENSEMBLE creates devised absurdist tragicomedies that redefine traditional stories of feminine experiences.

THE PECKING ORDER is born out of grief and disbelief after the 2022 decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, and inspired by the wife and daughters of the supreme court judge who penned the original opinion, Justice Harry Blackmun. This 70s-inspired tragicomedy highlights the absurdity of women’s rights being thrust back in time in typically unpredictable Paper Dolls fashion, and asks provocative questions about unplanned pregnancy, family dynamics, and women’s rights.

Links:

https://paperdollensemble.com/

https://www.patreon.com/ThePaperDollEnsemble

https://phillyfringe.org/events/the-pecking-order/

Recommended:

https://phillyfringe.org/events/citrus-andronicus/

https://phillyfringe.org/events/vile/

https://phillyfringe.org/events/she-was-a-conquistawhore/

TRANSCRIPT:

Darnelle Radford:

And welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Darnell Radford, and today I'm in the virtual studio with Paper Doll Ensemble, whose production, The Peking Order, will be on stage September 21st through October 1st. And I'm here with co-founder Amanda Jensen. Amanda, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Darnelle Radford:

So I know you, Amanda, through many... with various capacities, but please tell our audience a little bit about you.

Amanda:

Yeah, so I've been in Philadelphia for, oh my goodness, over 10 years now, and I started kind of as an electrician and a production manager, but in the past, like eight years, I've just been doing lighting design. So I'm pretty solidly a lighting designer in the Philadelphia area.

Darnelle Radford:

Cool. And how did you become part of Paper Doll Ensemble? How did you and everyone else get together

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

and form Paper Doll Ensemble?

Amanda:

So I applied for a artist residency with, oh my God, I can't believe I can't remember their names. It'll come to me as I talk about it. I applied for this artist residency with an all female company that Carly Boldner had founded. So I remember Carly. I love Carly. And I got paired up with Sarah Van Ness, who is now our co our co founder, Sarah Clackliata. She actually got married like two weeks before we had to put a show together, back in like 2000, I think, 17. So we got paired up and we were given a little budget and time and space in the Skinner Studio at Plays and Players. And then material, and the material

Darnelle Radford:

The

Amanda:

was

Darnelle Radford:

material was

Amanda:

Snow White

Darnelle Radford:

Snow

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

White

Amanda:

Rose

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

Red,

Darnelle Radford:

Rose Red,

Amanda:

which

Darnelle Radford:

which

Amanda:

is

Darnelle Radford:

is

Amanda:

a grimmest

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

fairy tale. It's not Snow White

Darnelle Radford:

grimmish

Amanda:

and the Seven

Darnelle Radford:

fairy

Amanda:

Dwarves.

Darnelle Radford:

tale. It's not Snow White and the

Amanda:

Snow

Darnelle Radford:

Seven

Amanda:

White

Darnelle Radford:

Dwarves.

Amanda:

and Red.

Darnelle Radford:

Snow

Amanda:

It's

Darnelle Radford:

White

Amanda:

two

Darnelle Radford:

and Red

Amanda:

sisters,

Darnelle Radford:

and Rose are

Amanda:

they're

Darnelle Radford:

two

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

sisters.

Amanda:

out in the woods,

Darnelle Radford:

They're like

Amanda:

they

Darnelle Radford:

out

Amanda:

meet

Darnelle Radford:

in the

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

woods.

Amanda:

bear,

Darnelle Radford:

They

Amanda:

it's

Darnelle Radford:

need

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

magical

Darnelle Radford:

bear. It's

Amanda:

bear.

Darnelle Radford:

a magical bear.

Amanda:

And we

Darnelle Radford:

And we

Amanda:

brought on two

Darnelle Radford:

brought

Amanda:

more

Darnelle Radford:

on

Amanda:

artists,

Darnelle Radford:

two more artists,

Amanda:

Gracie

Darnelle Radford:

Gracie

Amanda:

Hoffman,

Darnelle Radford:

Hoffman,

Amanda:

who's now

Darnelle Radford:

who's

Amanda:

Gracie

Darnelle Radford:

now Gracie

Amanda:

Carson,

Darnelle Radford:

Carson,

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

another

Darnelle Radford:

another

Amanda:

artist

Darnelle Radford:

artist

Amanda:

who's

Darnelle Radford:

who's

Amanda:

now in

Darnelle Radford:

now

Amanda:

New York,

Darnelle Radford:

in New York,

Amanda:

Juliet

Darnelle Radford:

Juliet

Amanda:

Govind.

Darnelle Radford:

Kroban.

Amanda:

And

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

we created

Darnelle Radford:

we created

Amanda:

this like

Darnelle Radford:

this

Amanda:

very

Darnelle Radford:

very

Amanda:

weird

Darnelle Radford:

weird

Amanda:

surrealist

Darnelle Radford:

surrealist

Amanda:

piece

Darnelle Radford:

piece

Amanda:

that like

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

felt

Darnelle Radford:

felt

Amanda:

like unnerving.

Darnelle Radford:

unnerving.

Amanda:

And it was in response to like all these different versions of this... fairy tale we were reading and how they were all like very much about like and then the girls took care of the bear and the bear turned into a prince and he married Snow White but don't worry he had a brother for Rose Red so then they all got married and after we finished that residency we just enjoyed working together so much that we decided we wanted to finish that piece because it was only like 30 minutes long And we took like

Darnelle Radford:

took

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

year

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

year

Amanda:

a half

Darnelle Radford:

and a half

Amanda:

to develop

Darnelle Radford:

to develop

Amanda:

that

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

into

Darnelle Radford:

into

Amanda:

our first

Darnelle Radford:

our first

Amanda:

full production,

Darnelle Radford:

full production,

Amanda:

which was called

Darnelle Radford:

called

Amanda:

This Is How

Darnelle Radford:

This

Amanda:

Girls

Darnelle Radford:

Is How

Amanda:

Die,

Darnelle Radford:

Girls Die,

Amanda:

which ended

Darnelle Radford:

which

Amanda:

up

Darnelle Radford:

ended

Amanda:

being

Darnelle Radford:

up

Amanda:

about

Darnelle Radford:

being about

Amanda:

three

Darnelle Radford:

three

Amanda:

sisters

Darnelle Radford:

sisters

Amanda:

trapped

Darnelle Radford:

trapped

Amanda:

in a cabin

Darnelle Radford:

in a cabin

Amanda:

because

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

they wouldn't

Darnelle Radford:

they

Amanda:

go

Darnelle Radford:

didn't

Amanda:

outside

Darnelle Radford:

go outside

Amanda:

because

Darnelle Radford:

because

Amanda:

their mom

Darnelle Radford:

their mom

Amanda:

was killed

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

by

Darnelle Radford:

killed

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

by

Amanda:

bear.

Darnelle Radford:

a bear.

Amanda:

The bear

Darnelle Radford:

Bear

Amanda:

was a

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

man.

Darnelle Radford:

a man. Oh, you find out again.

Amanda:

You find out at the end. And after that show, we were

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

just

Darnelle Radford:

were

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

just like,

Amanda:

look,

Darnelle Radford:

look,

Amanda:

this

Darnelle Radford:

this

Amanda:

is

Darnelle Radford:

is,

Amanda:

we really

Darnelle Radford:

we really

Amanda:

love this.

Darnelle Radford:

love

Amanda:

We

Darnelle Radford:

this.

Amanda:

love

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

working

Darnelle Radford:

love working

Amanda:

together.

Darnelle Radford:

together.

Amanda:

We love.

Darnelle Radford:

We love

Amanda:

creating

Darnelle Radford:

creating

Amanda:

pieces

Darnelle Radford:

pieces

Amanda:

and devising.

Darnelle Radford:

and devising.

Amanda:

And

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

so we

Darnelle Radford:

so

Amanda:

just

Darnelle Radford:

we just

Amanda:

decided

Darnelle Radford:

decided

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

like,

Amanda:

literally

Darnelle Radford:

literally

Amanda:

like a

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

week

Darnelle Radford:

a week

Amanda:

after

Darnelle Radford:

after

Amanda:

we had

Darnelle Radford:

we had

Amanda:

finished

Darnelle Radford:

finished

Amanda:

this production

Darnelle Radford:

this production.

Amanda:

to start a company and we called it Paper Doll Ensemble and here we are now. And we've done like

Darnelle Radford:

We've

Amanda:

two

Darnelle Radford:

done

Amanda:

full

Darnelle Radford:

two

Amanda:

productions.

Darnelle Radford:

full productions.

Amanda:

We like

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

snuck in

Darnelle Radford:

snuck

Amanda:

our second

Darnelle Radford:

in our second

Amanda:

production

Darnelle Radford:

production

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

literally

Darnelle Radford:

literally

Amanda:

four weeks

Darnelle Radford:

four

Amanda:

before

Darnelle Radford:

weeks

Amanda:

the

Darnelle Radford:

before

Amanda:

pandemic

Darnelle Radford:

the pandemic

Amanda:

shut everything

Darnelle Radford:

shut everything

Amanda:

down.

Darnelle Radford:

down.

Amanda:

And then we

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

did

Darnelle Radford:

then

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

virtual

Darnelle Radford:

did a first

Amanda:

production

Darnelle Radford:

full production.

Amanda:

in 2021 for virtual. a virtual fringe about witches and witchcraft. And so

Darnelle Radford:

So

Amanda:

we're back,

Darnelle Radford:

we're back,

Amanda:

we're back

Darnelle Radford:

we're back

Amanda:

doing

Darnelle Radford:

doing

Amanda:

an in-person

Darnelle Radford:

it in person

Amanda:

full production,

Darnelle Radford:

for prevention,

Amanda:

which is like

Darnelle Radford:

which is like

Amanda:

super exciting

Darnelle Radford:

super exciting

Amanda:

for us

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

because

Darnelle Radford:

us because

Amanda:

I felt

Darnelle Radford:

I felt

Amanda:

like we

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

loved

Darnelle Radford:

we love

Amanda:

working

Darnelle Radford:

working

Amanda:

on that virtual

Darnelle Radford:

on that virtual

Amanda:

piece,

Darnelle Radford:

piece,

Amanda:

but

Darnelle Radford:

but

Amanda:

there's just

Darnelle Radford:

there's

Amanda:

something

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

really

Darnelle Radford:

something

Amanda:

magical

Darnelle Radford:

really magical

Amanda:

about

Darnelle Radford:

all

Amanda:

being

Darnelle Radford:

being

Amanda:

in

Darnelle Radford:

in

Amanda:

the

Darnelle Radford:

front

Amanda:

room

Darnelle Radford:

of us

Amanda:

together

Darnelle Radford:

together.

Amanda:

in person that we were really missing.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, cool. So why Paper Doll? Paper Doll? Yeah. So, wait, you know what?

Amanda:

Paper Doll. It's so funny. I, you know what? I don't remember why that came to us

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

us

Amanda:

it was

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

such

Darnelle Radford:

it was

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

such

Amanda:

good

Darnelle Radford:

a good

Amanda:

name.

Darnelle Radford:

name.

Amanda:

I think

Darnelle Radford:

I

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

think

Amanda:

were like

Darnelle Radford:

we were like

Amanda:

spit

Darnelle Radford:

spitballing.

Amanda:

balling. We were sitting

Darnelle Radford:

We were

Amanda:

in

Darnelle Radford:

sitting

Amanda:

Rittenhouse

Darnelle Radford:

in Rittenhouse

Amanda:

Park, that

Darnelle Radford:

Park,

Amanda:

I

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

remember.

Darnelle Radford:

I remember.

Amanda:

And we

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

knew

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

knew

Amanda:

were going to be

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

doing

Darnelle Radford:

were going to be doing...

Amanda:

This Is How Girls Die at Plays and Players as a co-production. And we're

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

we're like,

Amanda:

oh, it's

Darnelle Radford:

oh,

Amanda:

just

Darnelle Radford:

it's

Amanda:

going to

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

be

Darnelle Radford:

going

Amanda:

silly

Darnelle Radford:

to be silly

Amanda:

if it's just

Darnelle Radford:

if it's

Amanda:

our

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

names.

Darnelle Radford:

our names.

Amanda:

Like we should

Darnelle Radford:

Like, we

Amanda:

have

Darnelle Radford:

should

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

have

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

company

Darnelle Radford:

company

Amanda:

name, at least

Darnelle Radford:

name,

Amanda:

something

Darnelle Radford:

at least something

Amanda:

that's like

Darnelle Radford:

that's, like,

Amanda:

not

Darnelle Radford:

not

Amanda:

Amanda

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

Jensen,

Darnelle Radford:

Vintages,

Amanda:

Gracie Hoffman and Sarah

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

Quagliata.

Darnelle Radford:

Sarah Flagliata.

Amanda:

And so

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

we just started

Darnelle Radford:

so we just

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

started,

Amanda:

riffing

Darnelle Radford:

like, riffing

Amanda:

on like

Darnelle Radford:

on,

Amanda:

dolls

Darnelle Radford:

like, dolls.

Amanda:

and like because Something that we really enjoy working with this is the idea of like femininity and what that means and then what lies beneath so like we started brushing on dolls like what is that and Someone was like paper doll

Darnelle Radford:

paper

Amanda:

and I was

Darnelle Radford:

doll

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

really paper dolls. I'm a paper dolls

Darnelle Radford:

I

Amanda:

apple.

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

That's it I was like check

Darnelle Radford:

like,

Amanda:

it and we checked

Darnelle Radford:

paper

Amanda:

like every social

Darnelle Radford:

doll

Amanda:

media like platform

Darnelle Radford:

ensemble,

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

paper

Amanda:

no one had

Darnelle Radford:

doll

Amanda:

it and we're like

Darnelle Radford:

ensemble, that's it. I was like, check it. We checked every social media

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

platform and no one had it and we're like, take it. That's great. And actually, sometimes that is the way it's like, wait, does anybody own it? Okay, we'll take it.

Amanda:

Yeah, and that's like it. We were like, we loved it so much sitting there on the bench. We were just like, that feels so right for

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

us. And then I was like, we gotta check. We gotta check. So Gracie pulls out her phone and she's like, it's not on Instagram, it's not on Twitter. Yeah, so then that was it. It was like the right, it was like the sign of like, this is it.

Darnelle Radford:

Cool. I love when it's like, when the organic process just flows. It's not, we slaved over this for months on end and then one day I woke up from a bad dream and here it was.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, cool. So, I, if, from what I gather from past shows, there's always been some sort of, there's been a theme that has inspired all the pieces.

Amanda:

Yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

And talk,

Amanda:

that's true.

Darnelle Radford:

talk about how that became sort of the calling card of Paper Doll.

Amanda:

So we really, we actually, it's so funny you say that because we have in our like Google folder, our share folder for the company, another folder that says show ideas and it's just folders of ideas with research of them. Like one of the things we have in there is like female jockeys. Don't

Darnelle Radford:

Hehehe

Amanda:

know, we like read an article, thought it was cool, put it in there, that might be a show one day. We don't

Darnelle Radford:

We'll figure

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

it out later.

Amanda:

we'll figure it out. Like it kind of comes down to like, what's going on in society and what like, like tickles us, like we're like, oh, that's so good. Like, let's learn more about that. And that's kind of, what's interesting about this piece currently is that this is not where we started. We started in a completely different place than where we've ended up. And I think that's like kind of the interesting part of like the birth of this piece, but that's how we kind of pick our topics. We like go through our folders and like have me, like Gracie Sarah and I sit down and talk about like, what is going on right now that is relevant to us. that we're hearing stories about or that we really wanna explore or dig into. And that's our second show was like, what do we wanna explore and dig into? And it was The Bachelor.

Darnelle Radford:

Mm. Ha ha ha.

Amanda:

And that was mostly because, you know, it's such a cultural phenomenon, this show. And when we started researching it, it's like really weird and messed up when you like know how they produce it and like how the women are portrayed and how they use like, editing to make certain characters in the show. I use characters loosely in the show. They edited one woman to sound completely crazy on the season we all watched together,

Darnelle Radford:

Hmm.

Amanda:

and she was a perfectly normal person.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And then this idea that the women are all sleep deprived and they don't have any outside contact, and that's two tactics of cults. So we went down that rabbit hole and we created a show.

Darnelle Radford:

Wow. I, so I, when you said the bachelor, I was thinking about there's a commercial that is sort of parodying the bachelorette. And she's, she says something like, she's like, she's like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Frankie D. I had a really good time with you, but I'm gonna choose Frankie Z. And it's like everybody's kind of the same. And it's like, so, you know, the way they cast, they cast basically the same people.

Amanda:

Yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

those

Darnelle Radford:

you're

Amanda:

archetypes.

Darnelle Radford:

like, I don't know what to choose. And it's

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

ridiculous. Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah, and that was our thing with that show. We were like really like, who are these? We were seeing the women in that show, not on camera. Cause we kept having this like, this discussion of like, do you think they act like, or you know, anyone, do you act differently when you're public facing versus when you're private facing? And so that like became one of the things we kept digging into is like, who are these women when they're not on camera and not being watched?

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, I love that because I have many ideas that go behind the scenes of things because we're working so hard to clean everything up and polish it and present it in such a way. And it's like, yeah, but I want to know the behind the scenes things like, you know, in everything, like, for example, I'll watch, you know, like a spy drama or something. And I'm like, who runs the HR department? You know? Like,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

how do they get paid? What happens if somebody

Amanda:

Who's

Darnelle Radford:

dies?

Amanda:

in charge?

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, like.

Amanda:

Who made those code words up? That's what I want to know. Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah

Amanda:

It's interesting. Cause like that kind of that motif is actually woven itself through a lot of our work. Like what is lying underneath the surface or like what is, uh, the what's behind that public mask.

Darnelle Radford:

Hmm.

Amanda:

So, um, this is how girls die was like had that happening in it. And this show, definitely. has an element of that in it as well.

Darnelle Radford:

Okay.

Amanda:

Okay.

Darnelle Radford:

So now we come to the pecking order.

Amanda:

hacking rid of.

Darnelle Radford:

First

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

off, in your Google Drive folder, where you have all your ideas, was this idea in there and was it called the pecking order?

Amanda:

It was not in our folder at all.

Darnelle Radford:

Oh wow,

Amanda:

No,

Darnelle Radford:

okay.

Amanda:

this was, like I said, we started in a very different place with this show.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

We actually started with just Sarah, Gracie and I like coming out of like, we can be back together then, we've all been vaccinated, like all of that. Being like, we just wanna do something like what we did early, early on when we did like, this is how girls die. Like, let's just start with the three of us. And so we were actually looking at debutante culture and like, what that is and how you move through that society, very public facing. And we were working on it when all of those, when it got leaked, when that paper got leaked, and we're like, oh no, do we need to make a show about losing abortion rights? And we're like, no, we don't know. And Lightning Rod Special's already done one. Why should, let's just. focus on this show and like, it's gonna be fine.

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

And then June happened and we were like, oh no, we're not making this show anymore about debutantes. We're making a short show about abortion rights. Like it completely changed our trajectory. We actually put aside the show we were working on and started over because we were also angry and upset and like hurt and. I guess, and I'm always being theater artists, we're like, what better way to process this and like show the devastation of this decision than to make a piece of art? We always say that we wanted it to be just standing on stage, yelling at the audience, like, abortion is healthcare! But we're like, but no one will come and see that show or stay at that show, so let's make something that says that without yelling it.

Darnelle Radford:

Hmm.

Amanda:

And then

Darnelle Radford:

Okay.

Amanda:

that's how we started. Another piece of that puzzle is we decided like, okay, we're switching gears. We're gonna make a show about access to abortions and healthcare rights and women's rights. And we brought in two more collaborators, people we've collaborated before, Simha Toledano and Marsha Ferguson and serving on this piece. And... What happened was Sarah listened to this amazing podcast that she sent to all of us and I do not remember it. I can text her and find out, but they talk about Justice Blackmon who wrote the decision for Roe versus Wade. And through it, this podcast, we learned that he had three daughters who all kind of had different ideas about abortion and abortion rights and what he should do or shouldn't do. And we started researching this family because it was so fascinating. and found this like amazing story of these, you know, his wife and his three daughters, these like amazing women, like amazing women, and his decision, and it like really propelled us forward. And so what we found in that is like all the characters and this idea of like, what happens, again, what happens public facing and what happens private facing? Because through our research, we found out that his middle daughter, before he wrote the decision, got pregnant in college and had to drop out and marry her boyfriend

Darnelle Radford:

Wow.

Amanda:

and stop her education because she got pregnant. And so we took that and we moved it a little forward in the timeline. It happened in the late 60s, but we moved it up to the 70s. and started building a show off her coming home to pretty much tell everyone, you know, that she was gonna have to quit school.

Darnelle Radford:

Wow. I love how ideas and resources and references become story. So thank you for breaking that down.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

And so what do you think? So when it comes to seeing a piece of art,

Amanda:

Mm-hmm.

Darnelle Radford:

I know how it sounds when I ask this question, because I know you just come in with a blank slate and you just sort of process what is

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

there, but like, what do you think, what should we know about the political infringements on women's rights right now?

Amanda:

Oh my

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

goodness.

Darnelle Radford:

is it required? Is it required to experience the pecking order?

Amanda:

I think the only thing you need to know, coming to see the pecking order, the only thing you need to know about what is currently happening, and there is a lot happening, and it's all scary, but the only thing you need to know is that we are being thrust back in time. We are being, rights that we have had for, what is it, like 50 years, rights of privacy, rights of bodily autonomy are being ripped away from us, and we are being sent back. to pre 1973. My mom had more rights than I do right now. So that is the only thing you need to know and come with an open mind and just watch this story.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah. And so I'm sure you've had this conversation as you were letting this piece become what it's meant to be.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm.

Darnelle Radford:

What do you think the reason is behind all this?

Amanda:

The reason behind the,

Darnelle Radford:

all this and all this infringement

Amanda:

I think,

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

well,

Darnelle Radford:

us going back in time.

Amanda:

patriarchy, that's the simple answer, but really what it is this weird, like, inner mingling of church and state that's not supposed to happen, and a small majority having a lot more power than they should, because, you know, I don't know the numbers, and I'm not gonna try to quote anything, I feel, and from what I read and what I know, that a lot of people are in support of women being able to choose what they want to do with their bodies. And I think the problem is that we are trying to, what's the word I'm looking for? We are trying to legislate what I can and can't do with my body because I just happen to have a uterus. Like nothing like this is going through any courts or any government in our country when it comes to like limiting a man's right or access to something that they need or don't need. But the example that I always like get on my high horse about and I'm happy to get on my high horse about

Darnelle Radford:

Hehehe

Amanda:

is like, you can get Viacra, you can like, it's covered by your health insurance, but

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

you can't. go to the hospital because you're having a miscarriage and get an abortion, even though it's life threatening.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And that to me really just shows such a disconnect in our society that one is okay and fine, but and like, I don't know, like that seems like something that if you want that, sure, fine, great. But the other one, like being able, if you're having a miscarriage to go to a hospital and get healthcare seems pretty damn important. erectile dysfunction.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, yeah. And they're so precious about erectile dysfunction that you can just answer a questionnaire without really talking to anybody.

Amanda:

Yeah, you can get like ED meds over like an app now.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So, I

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

mean

Darnelle Radford:

it seems

Amanda:

that.

Darnelle Radford:

like everybody has them. It's crazy. And it's been scams for years. You would always see emails that are like, real hard, strong man. Like, what?

Amanda:

And like, that's, and to think about that, like that's also part of the patriarchy and like that

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

is also like really unhealthy and damaging to men as well. Like no one, this isn't good for anyone, but immediately right now, the problem is women can't get the healthcare they need. That to me is like a really big problem and like something that needs to be, you know, discussed and addressed and really like. seen in this moment as a problem.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah. So I always believe that marginalization comes from fear.

Amanda:

Yes.

Darnelle Radford:

What do you think they are afraid of?

Amanda:

that women can make their own decisions. I'm not 100% sure all the time. I'm not sure what the fear necessarily comes from or is, but I do think it is a fear of like, this sounds so like, I'm not trying to be judgmental, but it is kind of like this fear of like, well, you'll go to hell. Or this fear of, well, if you can make your own decisions. like, are you gonna make a bad decision for yourself? And like, that's still like, that's still my decision to make whether, and my decision to make whether it's good or bad for myself is my decision. Like, so I think that's what a lot of it comes from. It comes from this fear of also just not knowing and not being able to listen and like lacking empathy in

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

the moment too. I think because of the fear. It's really hard for people to hear other people's stories with just like,

Darnelle Radford:

stories,

Amanda:

just to

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

hear the

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

story

Darnelle Radford:

hear the story,

Amanda:

or just

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

to hear where

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

they're

Darnelle Radford:

hear where

Amanda:

coming

Darnelle Radford:

they're coming

Amanda:

from.

Darnelle Radford:

from.

Amanda:

And I think

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

that

Darnelle Radford:

I

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

think

Amanda:

that's

Darnelle Radford:

that's

Amanda:

something

Darnelle Radford:

something

Amanda:

that's

Darnelle Radford:

that's

Amanda:

really missing

Darnelle Radford:

really missing

Amanda:

in a lot

Darnelle Radford:

in a

Amanda:

of

Darnelle Radford:

lot of

Amanda:

this

Darnelle Radford:

this

Amanda:

like demonization

Darnelle Radford:

demonization.

Amanda:

of women who need this access and who want to, you know, have the choice.

Darnelle Radford:

You know what's interesting about it is that the thing the world does unconsciously effortlessly is evolve.

Amanda:

Yes.

Darnelle Radford:

We can watch a plant grow

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

and it just grows, you know, unless you stunt its growth, then why would you do that? Why would you plant? Why would you plant something if you didn't want it to grow and you don't have any real control over what it grows into? but you nurture it anyway.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

And so it always seems crazy. Like I mainline the news, it's unfortunate. And I try to turn it off. And sometimes I feel like, well, you know, it's sort of my duty to be aware of these things. And, you know, I'm a part of an organization that needs to know what's going on in the news. And so I think about that. But it's often like, Why the mindset of picking and choosing what gets to evolve and

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

what doesn't? It's like you don't have a say. So why do you think you have a say?

Amanda:

Right, and there's like, yeah, exactly. And this idea too that like a lot of people who need access to this are people who are trying to actually do better for themselves.

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Who are actually like, I can't have a child right now. I'm not financially stable. I don't like, maybe I don't have like good housing.

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Like there's so many reasons that I think are overlooked in this argument other than, well, that's a life.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And there's so many more things and nuances that go into this argument that I think are just

Darnelle Radford:

into

Amanda:

thrown to the wayside a lot of the time in the name of morality.

Darnelle Radford:

this argument and things are just thrown to the wayside a lot of the time in the name of Marco. So take us into the work in progress in December.

Amanda:

Yeah, it was.

Darnelle Radford:

Where were you at the, where was the piece at that point?

Amanda:

So we had about, I'm gonna say like 40 minutes of solid, like a solid skeleton of a script. We knew what the piece was about, we knew who the characters were, we kind of knew the point, we get from point A, B, and then C, and we were like, okay, let's put it in front of the audience, let's see if they get it, let's see if it works, let's see if there's questions that

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

come

Darnelle Radford:

come

Amanda:

up,

Darnelle Radford:

up

Amanda:

and if...

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

those

Darnelle Radford:

if

Amanda:

questions

Darnelle Radford:

those questions

Amanda:

need to be

Darnelle Radford:

need

Amanda:

answered

Darnelle Radford:

to be answered

Amanda:

or if we can

Darnelle Radford:

or

Amanda:

just

Darnelle Radford:

if

Amanda:

leave

Darnelle Radford:

we can

Amanda:

them

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

as

Darnelle Radford:

leave

Amanda:

questions.

Darnelle Radford:

them as questions.

Amanda:

And

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

so

Darnelle Radford:

so

Amanda:

we were

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

also

Darnelle Radford:

were also

Amanda:

very,

Darnelle Radford:

very,

Amanda:

we're

Darnelle Radford:

we're

Amanda:

overachievers.

Darnelle Radford:

overachievers.

Amanda:

So

Darnelle Radford:

So

Amanda:

it was

Darnelle Radford:

it was

Amanda:

a staged

Darnelle Radford:

a stage

Amanda:

reading

Darnelle Radford:

reading

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

everyone

Darnelle Radford:

everyone

Amanda:

still had scripts

Darnelle Radford:

still has

Amanda:

on their

Darnelle Radford:

Chris's

Amanda:

hands

Darnelle Radford:

hair,

Amanda:

and it's staged

Darnelle Radford:

but stage

Amanda:

reading

Darnelle Radford:

reading.

Amanda:

but we had costumes,

Darnelle Radford:

We had costumes,

Amanda:

we had props,

Darnelle Radford:

we had props,

Amanda:

there was like

Darnelle Radford:

it was like

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

little

Darnelle Radford:

little

Amanda:

table

Darnelle Radford:

table,

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

for the

Darnelle Radford:

from

Amanda:

set

Darnelle Radford:

the set,

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

we were

Darnelle Radford:

were

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

definitely

Darnelle Radford:

definitely

Amanda:

overachieving

Darnelle Radford:

overachieving

Amanda:

in that

Darnelle Radford:

in that

Amanda:

moment.

Darnelle Radford:

moment,

Amanda:

But it was

Darnelle Radford:

but

Amanda:

really

Darnelle Radford:

it was really

Amanda:

great for

Darnelle Radford:

great

Amanda:

us to

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

put

Darnelle Radford:

us to

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

put

Amanda:

on

Darnelle Radford:

them.

Amanda:

its feet and see. what else

Darnelle Radford:

and see

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

what

Amanda:

needed

Darnelle Radford:

else

Amanda:

to create.

Darnelle Radford:

we needed to create.

Amanda:

We knew

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

knew

Amanda:

wasn't

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

finished.

Darnelle Radford:

wasn't finished.

Amanda:

We knew

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

knew

Amanda:

needed

Darnelle Radford:

it needed

Amanda:

a little

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

bit

Darnelle Radford:

little

Amanda:

more.

Darnelle Radford:

bit

Amanda:

We

Darnelle Radford:

more.

Amanda:

knew

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

there

Darnelle Radford:

knew

Amanda:

were things

Darnelle Radford:

there were

Amanda:

we were

Darnelle Radford:

things

Amanda:

gonna

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

have

Darnelle Radford:

were gonna

Amanda:

to explain.

Darnelle Radford:

have to explain.

Amanda:

But once

Darnelle Radford:

But

Amanda:

you've

Darnelle Radford:

once you've

Amanda:

been in

Darnelle Radford:

been

Amanda:

the room

Darnelle Radford:

in the

Amanda:

for

Darnelle Radford:

room for

Amanda:

almost

Darnelle Radford:

almost

Amanda:

a year,

Darnelle Radford:

a year,

Amanda:

sometimes

Darnelle Radford:

sometimes

Amanda:

it's really

Darnelle Radford:

it's

Amanda:

hard

Darnelle Radford:

really

Amanda:

to

Darnelle Radford:

hard.

Amanda:

see what those things are. And having feedback from the audience and other artists who come and see our work and being able to talk to them was excellent. We kind of took everything in. And then came back like a, I think like a month or two later and like started

Darnelle Radford:

started

Amanda:

to workshop again and finish what we'd started.

Darnelle Radford:

to work out again and finish what we started. Yeah. How did the audience respond in December?

Amanda:

like really good, we had great responses. It was interesting,

Darnelle Radford:

It was interesting.

Amanda:

we had

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

had

Amanda:

lot

Darnelle Radford:

a lot

Amanda:

of,

Darnelle Radford:

of...

Amanda:

this is

Darnelle Radford:

this

Amanda:

no

Darnelle Radford:

is

Amanda:

shade

Darnelle Radford:

no shade

Amanda:

at all,

Darnelle Radford:

at all.

Amanda:

no shade, but we had a lot of older white men be very confused about well, what the time period was, because we didn't say back at the reading if it was 1972 or if it was 2022. We've actually, after talking to Paige Zubal, who like, comes and gives us

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

feedback

Darnelle Radford:

gives us feedback

Amanda:

during

Darnelle Radford:

during

Amanda:

the process,

Darnelle Radford:

the process,

Amanda:

we decided

Darnelle Radford:

we decided

Amanda:

to solidly

Darnelle Radford:

to solidly

Amanda:

set it

Darnelle Radford:

set

Amanda:

in

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

the 70s.

Darnelle Radford:

in the seven days.

Amanda:

But

Darnelle Radford:

But

Amanda:

yeah, we

Darnelle Radford:

yeah,

Amanda:

took

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

took

Amanda:

all

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

in,

Darnelle Radford:

all in,

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

took

Darnelle Radford:

took

Amanda:

the things

Darnelle Radford:

the

Amanda:

that

Darnelle Radford:

things

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

needed

Darnelle Radford:

we needed

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

used those,

Darnelle Radford:

used those,

Amanda:

and then some

Darnelle Radford:

and then

Amanda:

of the

Darnelle Radford:

some

Amanda:

things

Darnelle Radford:

of the things

Amanda:

that were like,

Darnelle Radford:

that were like,

Amanda:

we're okay

Darnelle Radford:

we're okay

Amanda:

not answering

Darnelle Radford:

not answering

Amanda:

that question,

Darnelle Radford:

the question,

Amanda:

or

Darnelle Radford:

or

Amanda:

we're okay

Darnelle Radford:

we're okay

Amanda:

if you

Darnelle Radford:

if you

Amanda:

felt

Darnelle Radford:

felt

Amanda:

uncomfortable

Darnelle Radford:

uncomfortable

Amanda:

in this

Darnelle Radford:

in

Amanda:

section,

Darnelle Radford:

this section,

Amanda:

and just

Darnelle Radford:

and just like, we go

Amanda:

threw those away. Because I

Darnelle Radford:

away.

Amanda:

think there's

Darnelle Radford:

But I think

Amanda:

sometimes,

Darnelle Radford:

there's sometimes,

Amanda:

being a

Darnelle Radford:

being

Amanda:

little

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

bit

Darnelle Radford:

little

Amanda:

uncomfortable

Darnelle Radford:

bit uncomfortable isn't a-

Amanda:

Bad thing.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah. Yeah, honestly, being uncomfortable in theater is probably ideal. There's something there

Amanda:

something that you have to

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

think

Darnelle Radford:

you

Amanda:

about.

Darnelle Radford:

really

Amanda:

Yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

need

Amanda:

and

Darnelle Radford:

to process.

Amanda:

we had a lot of people come up afterwards and say, thank you for making this. We had a lot of people who absolutely loved the piece, where it was. And it just made it like, it was very affirming to us that we were on the right track and that we were heading in the right direction and we could take all this in and finish the piece. And so now it is probably gonna run about an hour, hour five. We like

Darnelle Radford:

We

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

nice,

Darnelle Radford:

a nice

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

app,

Amanda:

all

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

of our

Darnelle Radford:

all

Amanda:

pieces

Darnelle Radford:

of our pieces

Amanda:

have been like

Darnelle Radford:

have been like this

Amanda:

just maybe

Darnelle Radford:

just maybe

Amanda:

a hair

Darnelle Radford:

a year

Amanda:

over an

Darnelle Radford:

over

Amanda:

hour,

Darnelle Radford:

an hour.

Amanda:

no intermission.

Darnelle Radford:

No intermission,

Amanda:

We get in

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

there,

Darnelle Radford:

get in there,

Amanda:

we get

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

in,

Darnelle Radford:

get

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

in,

Amanda:

get out,

Darnelle Radford:

we get

Amanda:

we

Darnelle Radford:

out, we

Amanda:

do it.

Darnelle Radford:

do it.

Amanda:

We really took

Darnelle Radford:

really

Amanda:

the

Darnelle Radford:

took

Amanda:

time

Darnelle Radford:

the time

Amanda:

too to develop

Darnelle Radford:

to develop

Amanda:

all of the

Darnelle Radford:

all

Amanda:

sisters

Darnelle Radford:

of the sisters

Amanda:

and what they're

Darnelle Radford:

and what

Amanda:

going

Darnelle Radford:

they're going

Amanda:

through.

Darnelle Radford:

through.

Amanda:

And so there's

Darnelle Radford:

And so

Amanda:

some

Darnelle Radford:

there's some

Amanda:

added

Darnelle Radford:

added

Amanda:

depth

Darnelle Radford:

depth

Amanda:

to each

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

of the

Darnelle Radford:

each

Amanda:

characters

Darnelle Radford:

of the characters.

Amanda:

with the mother and then the oldest sister and the middle sister and the youngest sister. So they all kind of have their own. like baggage that they're dealing with at the same time that this is brought to the home. And now they're like, as a family, we have to deal with this. And what do we do? We've also

Darnelle Radford:

We've also

Amanda:

added,

Darnelle Radford:

added...

Amanda:

there's some extra pressure of like some of like publicity in the public, possibly finding out, which I think really actually helped the piece, the urgency of the piece. Cause this is something we would always been talking about, like why tonight, why this night, why this day, why right now? in this piece, because it's just over the course of like one night in with the family. And that helped answer a lot of that, like those questions. Oh, because time is running out and this whole like the Roe versus

Darnelle Radford:

Roe

Amanda:

Wade decision is coming out. And so all the eyes are on this family. And that's why.

Darnelle Radford:

versus Wade. Decision is coming out, so all the eyes are on this family and that's it. And that's a great box to put it in.

Amanda:

Yeah, it really

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

did up the stakes like so much and we when we when we figured out that's what it was it was like this like ah like light bulb big explosion we're like that's it yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

So when you're when you're putting when you're putting a piece together, do you find as an ensemble? Do you find that you have more information and that you have to sort of edit down or do you have a key thing, a key point you wanna get across and you have to build story around it?

Amanda:

There's two, those are great questions because there's two things to that. We always have what we call like our thesis statement or our short hand for it is our nugget. So it's like this little nugget where like, this is what we were trying to explain. But when we start, because we are so research-based at the beginning, like we just have folders of like, articles and podcasts and imagery that we have been just consuming for like two, three months that we then share with. if we bring in collaborators and we share that with them and get them consuming all that information. And then we just throw that all out the window, which sounds awful. We're just like, don't forget all of that. Let's throw some spaghetti at the wall and see what happens. So we throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and then the stuff that's good, the stuff that sticks, the stuff that we really

Darnelle Radford:

that we really

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

like,

Amanda:

we then

Darnelle Radford:

even

Amanda:

build

Darnelle Radford:

build

Amanda:

into

Darnelle Radford:

into like...

Amanda:

little pieces. And then

Darnelle Radford:

And then

Amanda:

usually

Darnelle Radford:

usually

Amanda:

from there,

Darnelle Radford:

from there,

Amanda:

a story

Darnelle Radford:

the story

Amanda:

starts

Darnelle Radford:

starts

Amanda:

to emerge

Darnelle Radford:

to emerge

Amanda:

for us

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

because

Darnelle Radford:

us because

Amanda:

we do

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

a lot

Darnelle Radford:

do

Amanda:

of

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

character

Darnelle Radford:

lot of character

Amanda:

work at the

Darnelle Radford:

work

Amanda:

beginning

Darnelle Radford:

at the beginning

Amanda:

and character

Darnelle Radford:

and character

Amanda:

relationships.

Darnelle Radford:

relationships.

Amanda:

So

Darnelle Radford:

So

Amanda:

we have

Darnelle Radford:

we have

Amanda:

all of

Darnelle Radford:

all

Amanda:

this

Darnelle Radford:

of

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

this like...

Amanda:

really rich character life for each of these people that are going to be on stage and their relationships are really rich. And we then use that to create scenarios and prompts for them to kind of just like throw them in and like watch what happens. And like

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

that's

Darnelle Radford:

like, that's

Amanda:

how

Darnelle Radford:

how

Amanda:

we like

Darnelle Radford:

we like

Amanda:

start

Darnelle Radford:

start

Amanda:

building

Darnelle Radford:

building

Amanda:

our story

Darnelle Radford:

our story

Amanda:

and our script.

Darnelle Radford:

and our script.

Amanda:

So

Darnelle Radford:

So

Amanda:

I know

Darnelle Radford:

I

Amanda:

it's

Darnelle Radford:

know

Amanda:

not

Darnelle Radford:

it's not

Amanda:

in the show,

Darnelle Radford:

in the show,

Amanda:

but there

Darnelle Radford:

but

Amanda:

was

Darnelle Radford:

there

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

whole

Darnelle Radford:

a whole

Amanda:

improv

Darnelle Radford:

improv.

Amanda:

about Dottie, the mother, teaching the girls

Darnelle Radford:

teaching the girls

Amanda:

about

Darnelle Radford:

about

Amanda:

like,

Darnelle Radford:

what happens

Amanda:

what happens

Darnelle Radford:

when you get

Amanda:

when

Darnelle Radford:

period.

Amanda:

you get your period. It's not

Darnelle Radford:

If

Amanda:

in

Darnelle Radford:

not

Amanda:

the piece

Darnelle Radford:

in the piece

Amanda:

anymore,

Darnelle Radford:

anymore,

Amanda:

but it was

Darnelle Radford:

but it

Amanda:

so

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

important

Darnelle Radford:

so important

Amanda:

for us to

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

do

Darnelle Radford:

us to

Amanda:

that,

Darnelle Radford:

do that,

Amanda:

for like

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

to

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

build

Darnelle Radford:

build

Amanda:

their

Darnelle Radford:

the

Amanda:

backstory

Darnelle Radford:

backstory

Amanda:

and their relationships.

Darnelle Radford:

in the relationships.

Amanda:

And like,

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

there

Darnelle Radford:

there

Amanda:

is like,

Darnelle Radford:

is

Amanda:

some of

Darnelle Radford:

some

Amanda:

the words

Darnelle Radford:

of the words

Amanda:

that they

Darnelle Radford:

that they

Amanda:

used

Darnelle Radford:

used

Amanda:

in that

Darnelle Radford:

in that

Amanda:

improv

Darnelle Radford:

improv

Amanda:

are in

Darnelle Radford:

are

Amanda:

the

Darnelle Radford:

in

Amanda:

show,

Darnelle Radford:

the show,

Amanda:

but that

Darnelle Radford:

but

Amanda:

scene's

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

not

Darnelle Radford:

seems

Amanda:

in the show

Darnelle Radford:

on the

Amanda:

anymore.

Darnelle Radford:

show. So what do you do with those extra pieces?

Amanda:

So

Darnelle Radford:

So

Amanda:

they,

Darnelle Radford:

they, it's interesting

Amanda:

it's interesting

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

because

Darnelle Radford:

me.

Amanda:

we film a lot of our improvs because we do direct transcription to build the bones of our script. And then we go in and do like group editing on our feet to make sure things work. So sometimes this is fun, Gracie will like, on our Patreon, you can see

Darnelle Radford:

see

Amanda:

like a deleted

Darnelle Radford:

a deleted

Amanda:

scene

Darnelle Radford:

scene

Amanda:

and she'll toss

Darnelle Radford:

and she'll

Amanda:

that

Darnelle Radford:

toss

Amanda:

up and you

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

can

Darnelle Radford:

up

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

and you

Amanda:

see

Darnelle Radford:

can

Amanda:

one

Darnelle Radford:

see

Amanda:

of these

Darnelle Radford:

one

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

of these

Amanda:

scenes that

Darnelle Radford:

scenes

Amanda:

didn't

Darnelle Radford:

that

Amanda:

make

Darnelle Radford:

didn't

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

make

Amanda:

in

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

or

Darnelle Radford:

in

Amanda:

that

Darnelle Radford:

or

Amanda:

cup

Darnelle Radford:

that cut

Amanda:

got cut way down

Darnelle Radford:

way down

Amanda:

or like

Darnelle Radford:

or

Amanda:

a movement

Darnelle Radford:

a

Amanda:

piece

Darnelle Radford:

piece

Amanda:

that we

Darnelle Radford:

that we

Amanda:

made

Darnelle Radford:

made

Amanda:

and it like

Darnelle Radford:

and it

Amanda:

didn't

Darnelle Radford:

didn't

Amanda:

work

Darnelle Radford:

work

Amanda:

so we had

Darnelle Radford:

so

Amanda:

to

Darnelle Radford:

we

Amanda:

like

Darnelle Radford:

had to

Amanda:

cut it

Darnelle Radford:

cut

Amanda:

out. That

Darnelle Radford:

it out.

Amanda:

happened

Darnelle Radford:

That

Amanda:

with

Darnelle Radford:

happened

Amanda:

Merry Merry.

Darnelle Radford:

very, very

Amanda:

We made

Darnelle Radford:

quickly.

Amanda:

a whole like diet song about like diet culture and like different diet methods

Darnelle Radford:

and

Amanda:

and like it was just wrong for the piece. It was weird and it was

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

so like paper

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

dolls

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

and like it's weirdness but it just didn't fit into the piece anymore.

Darnelle Radford:

wrong

Amanda:

So during the pandemic we filmed it

Darnelle Radford:

for

Amanda:

as like a little music video with everyone and like put it up on our Patreon.

Darnelle Radford:

the

Amanda:

So if

Darnelle Radford:

piece.

Amanda:

you're a patron, you can go see the diet

Darnelle Radford:

It

Amanda:

song.

Darnelle Radford:

was weird and it was so like, amber gall and weirdness, but it just didn't fit into the piece anymore. So during the pandemic, we filmed it as like a little music video with everyone and like put it up on our Facebook page. And we found no stupid diet songs. That's really cool. I think that that's sort of a great way to... to support the development of the work by not letting it go, but you're using it all. They call it byproducts,

Amanda:

Yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

the byproducts

Amanda:

I love

Darnelle Radford:

of,

Amanda:

that.

Darnelle Radford:

yeah.

Amanda:

It's like, literally, now they say you don't want to see the sausage made. It's like, no, this is the sausage. This is how we make

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

it. This is it.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, that's kind of like early on when I started podcasting, I, you know, it took me a while to get a cadence took me a while for my team to get a cadence to for themselves. And, and often we would find that once we once we ended the interview, that's when we got a really juicy 10 minutes that I wish we had still recorded. So there are many times that, you know, when I was in person, When I would when I was live I would I would do a sign-off, but I wouldn't you know turn off the recorder

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

and then we would keep talking and we just keep that for ourselves and I always think that that's great because it's sort of like now that we've gone through that we're sort of unpacking

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

and And just processing

Amanda:

Yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah

Amanda:

that's cool. Yeah, that's like, yeah, we generate so much material and sometimes it is hard to pick and choose, but we've gotten very good at killing our darlings because we all recognize that like, if we were to put everything in, it would be like three hours and it would be like a fever dream and there would be no

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

story because it would just be all over the place.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah, so you did mention that you try to keep them just a just a tight hour or somewhere around an hour five

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

Um, do you ever think we have so much more content? Why not 90 minutes?

Amanda:

You know what? I think because we're taking the best of our content, like we are taking

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

the top tier content and putting that into the script, and we don't wanna add stuff just to make the piece longer. There has been talk about, in the past, this was like a very short conversation like two years ago about how like one day we could make like

Darnelle Radford:

make

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

sequel

Darnelle Radford:

a sequel

Amanda:

to

Darnelle Radford:

to

Amanda:

Mary

Darnelle Radford:

Merry

Amanda:

Quite Contrary.

Darnelle Radford:

by Paternary,

Amanda:

Like we could

Darnelle Radford:

but you

Amanda:

make

Darnelle Radford:

could make

Amanda:

something

Darnelle Radford:

something

Amanda:

else

Darnelle Radford:

else that you

Amanda:

that's

Darnelle Radford:

need,

Amanda:

either.

Darnelle Radford:

that's either

Amanda:

like a prequel

Darnelle Radford:

like a prequel.

Amanda:

or something that happens after. But our outlook is, you know, we don't wanna just make something 90 minutes because we wanna have something that's 90 minutes. We wanna have a really solid piece that's good storytelling, that's interesting, that makes you think. And if it's only gonna be an hour, that's fine.

Darnelle Radford:

That's great. And you never know, this piece itself might, could inspire a full length feature film, could

Amanda:

Yeah, it could.

Darnelle Radford:

inspire a TV series

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

or anything like that. I always look at it. I always look at it like that. I'm just like, you know, just because I think it's done here, even though I have other things I can do and I'm sitting, I'm sitting like observing it saying like, Oh, I could do that. I could do that at these things. They just become more inspiration for future work

Amanda:

Yeah, well that's

Darnelle Radford:

or for other ways to imagine.

Amanda:

our virtual piece, Wasp's Nest, definitely has like that potential. We have a lot of weird witchy improvs from doing all that virtual work with people. And you know, there is like a world, because the piece was episodic in itself, there is like a world where we could be like, oh, let's go, let's do like another episode. I don't know if we have the capacity to do any of that right now, but we definitely have the material tucked away if we ever are interested in revisiting those things.

Darnelle Radford:

Great. I mean, it's good to have a body of work like research and resources to go back to you. Your well is never dry,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

which is great because you can always end. I also think it's great to have a well that is full or filled and let other ideas. inspire you as well because you know you have a sense of security in knowing that you have this collection that you can go to and

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

realize further when you're ready. It kind of gives you the confidence to see something in real time and say, you know what, I know we were talking about this, but this has urgency right now.

Amanda:

Yeah

Darnelle Radford:

And let's explore this right now and we'll get back to the rest.

Amanda:

Yeah, exactly. And that's like exactly what happened with this piece.

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah. Well, that's great. I was going to ask you what motivates Paper Doll Ensemble. I think you might have met. I think you I think you

Amanda:

You think

Darnelle Radford:

touched

Amanda:

I cover

Darnelle Radford:

on

Amanda:

that?

Darnelle Radford:

it. But

Amanda:

I think I cover that one too.

Darnelle Radford:

yes, absolutely. So, OK, so we teased some of the ways that people can be involved in Paper Doll Ensemble, but I'm going to have you tell us.

Amanda:

All right.

Darnelle Radford:

So how can our listeners support Paper Doll Ensemble?

Amanda:

So the biggest way to support is to come see the show, of course. Like come see the show. It's going to be weird and make you think. And the characters are so beautifully developed and everyone is such an amazing performer in the cast that like it's a good show. The next way is to become a patreon. We have a patreon you there's a bunch of different levels. I think our lowest level is like $3 you get access to with that you get access to all of those like. behind the scenes things that we periodically post, plus a peek behind the curtain. I know, I think last year we all did a weird survey about us as people and our theater careers. And I know one of the questions on there was, what is the worst show you've ever seen? And I think mine got cut because I was not kind to the show.

Darnelle Radford:

Oh

Amanda:

I won't say it, but I saw a show in a fringe and it just, and I couldn't get out because I would have then become part of the show. And so I just had to sit there for 90 minutes and it was not good.

Darnelle Radford:

How dare you

Amanda:

And I was like,

Darnelle Radford:

trap

Amanda:

yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

me in here?

Amanda:

And I've always thought, and this is my theater professor, is that life is too short for bad theater. But yeah, so there's lots of things

Darnelle Radford:

I want

Amanda:

to see.

Darnelle Radford:

that on a t-shirt and I'm going to print that up and put

Amanda:

Do

Darnelle Radford:

it

Amanda:

it,

Darnelle Radford:

on the wall.

Amanda:

do it.

Darnelle Radford:

Life's too short for bad theater.

Amanda:

It's too short. So the Patreon is great. Like I said, I think our lowest level is like $3. You get all that behind the scenes. If you, the different tiers have different rewards. I know when, as you like go up, you get like reserved seats at our shows. You get like, there's lots of good perks there. I don't know them all off the top of my head. I just know they're good. And then let's see, what else? There's a, you can always follow us on Instagram. We're always posting, even when we're not in production. Gracie will tease little videos of some of our movement pieces and make like, there's some pretty funny things she's made from our weird movement pieces. And is that it? Is that it? Yeah. And we also have a newsletter. If you go to our website, which is paperdollensemble.com, you can sign up for a newsletter. And we only really send out. every couple of months and then when we're producing, like every, you get a lot more. But that's a great way to support us.

Darnelle Radford:

Nice. I love the Patreon categories. They're dew drops, sprinkles,

Amanda:

Yes, yes,

Darnelle Radford:

sugar cubes,

Amanda:

yes.

Darnelle Radford:

peeps, and golden scrunchies.

Amanda:

Peeps are very important to us. Our first show, we actually just did a fundraiser for the Fringe called the Peep Show, which

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

is all marshmallow Peeps, marshmallow Peep themed. We had a marshmallow Peep themed cocktail. We had a Peep tasting table, a Peep decorating contest. But our first show, this is how girls die, they eat a lunch consistent

Darnelle Radford:

system

Amanda:

of like

Darnelle Radford:

of like

Amanda:

all

Darnelle Radford:

this

Amanda:

this like

Darnelle Radford:

like

Amanda:

teal colored

Darnelle Radford:

teal

Amanda:

Gatorade

Darnelle Radford:

colored catorade

Amanda:

that they call tea and

Darnelle Radford:

that they call teak and a teak lasagna which

Amanda:

a

Darnelle Radford:

is

Amanda:

peep

Darnelle Radford:

just like yellow

Amanda:

lasagna,

Darnelle Radford:

and pink and

Amanda:

which was

Darnelle Radford:

melted

Amanda:

just

Darnelle Radford:

in layers in a lasagna

Amanda:

like yellow and pink

Darnelle Radford:

pan.

Amanda:

peeps melted in layers in a lasagna pan that they like,

Darnelle Radford:

Oh

Amanda:

yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

my

Amanda:

yeah. So

Darnelle Radford:

god.

Amanda:

that's the peeps are very important. And of course the golden scrunchie, like, come

Darnelle Radford:

Yeah.

Amanda:

on.

Darnelle Radford:

Okay. So since peeps are so important

Amanda:

Mm-hmm.

Darnelle Radford:

and there is a love hate with peeps, I love peeps, but there's a way to consume peeps and everybody has a different one.

Amanda:

Oh, okay.

Darnelle Radford:

And

Amanda:

That's true, yes.

Darnelle Radford:

so what do you prefer? Do you prefer peeps fresh out of the pack or peeps that have been exposed to the air and get a little bit stale?

Amanda:

I like stale. I like them a little crunchy.

Darnelle Radford:

Yes.

Amanda:

I don't know why, I just,

Darnelle Radford:

It's

Amanda:

they're,

Darnelle Radford:

a texture thing.

Amanda:

it is,

Darnelle Radford:

It's a

Amanda:

it

Darnelle Radford:

texture.

Amanda:

is. And my husband would disagree. He likes them fresh. If there's any amount of time that they've been out of the package and not consumed, then they're just, they're not good anymore. I'm like, give those ones to me. I'll eat those.

Darnelle Radford:

I know they're getting out of hand with all of these flavors.

Amanda:

Oh my God. Well, that's why we had the peep tasting area. We had, we

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

also had peepsy, which was, got really hard to find at one point, but we had peepsy,

Darnelle Radford:

We had deep sea,

Amanda:

we had tropical

Darnelle Radford:

we had tropical

Amanda:

fruit flavor.

Darnelle Radford:

fruit saver.

Amanda:

We had cotton candy birthday cake and Dr. Pepper,

Darnelle Radford:

Ha ha ha!

Amanda:

which is crazy.

Darnelle Radford:

All right, so now we know everything we need to know about the pecking order and how to get tickets. We're going to go to Philly Fringe dot org and get those tickets. And if there's also a pay what you can option as well.

Amanda:

Yeah, they're pay what you decide. So they

Darnelle Radford:

Okay.

Amanda:

start at $5 and go all the way up to $20. So yeah,

Darnelle Radford:

I started

Amanda:

pay what you decide.

Darnelle Radford:

$10 and it was only up to 20. Cool. So, you know, we decided. Cool. And since you're on the tail end of the fringe, do you have a fringe recommendation?

Amanda:

Okay, so I haven't been able to see any French shows yet because I was in New York all last week. But I'm going to try and see Citrus Andronicus, which I've heard is amazing. Everyone

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

I talked to have seen it, it's like you've gotta go see it. So like, I'm worried I'm not gonna get in, but I'm gonna try. Also our sound designer for The Peking Order is also the sound designer for that show and the ASM. So gotta go support Ava, they're awesome. can't. I'm so excited that we're going to be in tech together very shortly. But that one is like my number one so far. And then I forgot this artist's name. But they have a show called Vile and it is like a clown show. And I follow them on Instagram and they do these amazing like nude drawings, like illustrations. And I like Francesca, her name's Francesca.

Darnelle Radford:

Yes,

Amanda:

And

Darnelle Radford:

I got

Amanda:

I

Darnelle Radford:

the link.

Amanda:

love her art. So like, I'm hoping I can go see Vile because like, I just want to, I haven't seen her perform and I think she's so funny. And I like I said, I love her art. So definitely want to go see that. Uh, and like there was one other and I don't Bummer. I have them

Darnelle Radford:

Well,

Amanda:

all

Darnelle Radford:

two

Amanda:

written

Darnelle Radford:

is

Amanda:

down.

Darnelle Radford:

good.

Amanda:

I have them all written down and like all circled in my little newspaper, which is like not anywhere near me. So,

Darnelle Radford:

Yes.

Amanda:

but yeah, those two are definitely the ones I want to go see.

Darnelle Radford:

cool. So I think two recommendations is good. It definitely gives enough. The reason I ask about the recommendations is because I don't have time for any of it. That doesn't mean I don't have an interest. It means I'm

Amanda:

I just

Darnelle Radford:

just

Amanda:

don't know

Darnelle Radford:

overextended.

Amanda:

what's up.

Darnelle Radford:

I don't know how I've... I see a lot of theater and I don't know how I miss a lot of theater at the same time.

Amanda:

I

Darnelle Radford:

Ahem.

Amanda:

remembered my third one. I want to see she was a conquista whore.

Darnelle Radford:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

That's the other one I want to see.

Darnelle Radford:

Great. That I do have, and I also have that one on my list as well.

Amanda:

Yeah, I definitely want to see that. I think I have like one or two more chances. So I got to really get on it and go see that one.

Darnelle Radford:

Cool. All right. Well, Amanda, thank you so much

Amanda:

Of course.

Darnelle Radford:

for talking Paper Doll Ensemble and talking about the pecking order. I always hope that I can make time work for an interview.

Amanda:

Yeah, this

Darnelle Radford:

Paper

Amanda:

was great.

Darnelle Radford:

Doll is always great at reaching out. And sometimes we always have to reschedule because... It's just the nature of how things go. But

Amanda:

Yeah.

Darnelle Radford:

I'm glad we had the time to have this chat. The production is called The Pecking Order. It is on stage September 21st through October 1st.

Amanda:

Yep and the September 22nd is our opening night so if you come that night you get a drink on us and there'll be some snacks and you can hang out with artists

Darnelle Radford:

There you

Amanda:

afterwards.

Darnelle Radford:

go. Yeah. And so all the links will be in the show notes, including the Amanda's Recommendations. And yeah, that'll be it. So Amanda Jensen, thank you so much for talking to us today and telling us about Paper Doll Ensemble and the Pecking Order. It was truly a pleasure. Thank you

Amanda:

Thank

Darnelle Radford:

so

Amanda:

you

Darnelle Radford:

much.

Amanda:

so much, this was

Darnelle Radford:

It

Amanda:

so much

Darnelle Radford:

was

Amanda:

fun.

Darnelle Radford:

so fun.